[3] The later Annals of the Four Masters dates his reign to 379-405, [4] and the chronology . I'm obtaining my Portuguese citizenship due to this heritage. She grants Niall not only water but the kingship for many generationstwenty-six of his descendants will be High Kings of Ireland. an outstanding beauty, dressed in purple (the colour of royalty) and wearing Distant view of Round Tower at Glendalough, Neill, Mongfind refuses to accept the decision. Celtic blood is in Ireland,Uk,France and Spain. Niall of the Nine Hostages (Celtic Twilight) - Goodreads modern parlance, he put it about. Wrong. Ireland's five ancient provinces (Connaught, Munster, Leinster, Ulster and [9 ], While Niall is high king, his brothers establish themselves as local kings. 23andme specifies it as R-M269 and says "You share a paternal-line ancestor with Niall of the Nine Hostages" . Niall, who emerges carrying an anvil, is deemed greater than Brin, with a sledgehammer, Fiachrae with bellows and a pail of beer, Ailill with a chest of weapons, and Fergus with a bundle of wood. By another wife, Mon Fionn, daughter of the King of Munster, Eochaid had four sons, Brian, Fiachar, Ailill, and Fergus. Niall makes war in Europe as far as the Alps, and the Romans send an ambassador to parlay with him. Irish annalistic and chronicle sources place his reign in the late 4th and early 5th centuries, although modern scholars, through critical study of the annals, date him about half a century later. passed from father to son. As the Celtic language in Ireland transformed into Irish between AD 400500, Venii became Fni, and were also known to have called themselves Gadhil (from Common Celtic *wdelos, Brythonic gwddel, Goidelic *wdus to Old Irish Godelmeaning savage woodsman, wild, raider). There is a similarity in both names that it is likely it is the same person. He conquered the Uliad aristocracy, which ruled in Ulster, and by this victory and subsequent consolidation of power was able to found a dynasty, the Ui Neill, which gave rise to the O'Neill clan. Crimthann refuses to drink it unless she does too; they both drink, and both die. If a man has a sub-type of this lineage (called R1b1b2a1a2f2), however, its much more likely that his DNA might actually trace to Ireland. 23andMe will give you the basic results for Ydna but . Often this information is passed down through family stories, for instance, my mother claims to be a quarter Irish and so Im apparently one-eighth Irish. (Princess Of Britain ROIGHNEACH was born about 380. [7]:216217 Keating describes her not as a Saxon but as the "daughter of the king of Britain". 1) GENEALOGY: Royal Ancestors of Magna Charta Barons; Page 145; G929.72; C6943ra; Denver Public Library; Genealogy, Niall Mor, "Naill of the Nine Hostages, " 126th King of Ireland. Niall Nogallach (Irish pronunciation: [%CB%88ni%CB%90%C9%99l noilx], Old Irish "having nine hostages"),[1] or in English, Niall of the Nine Hostages, was a prehistoric Irish king, the ancestor of the U Nill family that dominated Ireland from the 6th to the 10th century. In His men carry his body home, fighting seven battles on the way, and his foster-father Torna dies of grief. One of them, Patrick, was the sixteen-year old son of a British Roman official. Fiachrae gives her a quick peck, but not enough to satisfy her. Niall of the Nine Hostages Irish leader Learn about this topic in these articles: association with Conn In Conn Ctchathach to be the ancestor of Niall of the Nine Hostages (reigned 379-405), who founded the U Nill, the greatest dynasty in Irish history. Not sure how to get the raw data file form 23andMe though? The Annals of the Four Masters dates his accession to 378 and death to 405. What is a maternal line? of Niall's promiscuity (a trait that, according to Celtic thinking, went hand Discover if You're a Niall of the Nine Hostages Descendant If Patrick was not this person, he would have lived shortly thereafter. The High Kingship did not become a reality until the 9th century, and Niall's status has been inflated in line with the political importance of the dynasty he founded. He earned his name, Niall of the nine hostages, by being able to subdue his enemies by taking members of their family and refusing to give them back until they admitted defeat. [6 ] Indeed, Keating describes her not as a Saxon but as the "daughter of the king of Britain". geneticists collected a number of samples from men across Ireland. There is nothing weird about someone with 0.00% measurable Irish ethnicity being one of his descendants. According to one version of the story, Niall took hostages from the five provinces of Ireland (Ulster, Connacht, Leinster, Munster, and Meath), from the Scots, the Saxons, the Britons, and the Franks. Hi, i've posted my results recently, being of predominantly Italian (paternal) and Polish origin. By the 8th century, the Ui Nills held power in the north west where they were known as the Northern Ui Nill, and also in the Midlands where they are known as the Southern Ui Nill. These sources date from long after Niall's time and their value as history is limited at best. widespread in literature around the world. [10] He is succeeded by his nephew Nath . Byrne suggests that Niall's death took place during a raid on Roman Britain. A legendary account of Niall's birth and early life is given in the possibly-11th-century tale Echtra mac nEchach Muimedin ("The adventure of the sons of Eochaid Mugmedn"). [3] The later Annals of the Four Masters dates his reign to 379-405,[4] and the chronology of Geoffrey Keating's Foras Feasa ar irinn to 368395. Thousands of years is a long time. [13], In January 2006, geneticists at Trinity College, Dublin suggested that Niall may have been the most fecund male in Irish history. [5] Mongfind appears to have been a supernatural personage: the saga "The Death of Crimthann mac Fidaig" says the festival of Samhain was commonly called the "Festival of Mongfind", and prayers were offered to her on Samhain eve. More recently 23andMe redefined it as R-P311 from an early ancestor associated with group M269. Connect to the World Family Tree to find out, Tir Eogain (now Tyron) , Northern Ireland (United Kingdom), Forgotten Monarchy, Scotland (United Kingdom), Conall Gulban mac Nill, King of Tirconal, Eochaid mac Muiredach mac Muiredach, Ard-r na h'ireann {Legendary, Lebor Gabla renn}, http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/niall-of-the-nine-hostages.html. stories say that the future St Patrick was among hostages taken from one such Mongfind refuses to accept the decision. 76-78[6]:p. 220, Niall is placed in the traditional list of High Kings of Ireland. His reign dated to the late 4th and early 5th centuries. According to McVoy this area was the main powerbase of the Ui Neill kings, which literally translated means "descendants of Niall". He eventually came to control most of the Northern half of Ireland. When Niall grows up he returns to Tara and rescues his mother from her labour. His body is said to have been buried at Ochann, now known as Faughan Hill at Jordanstown, a few miles west of Navan in County Meath. 'The Gathering is a reunion of clans so to speak. the first high king of Ireland. All sources agree he died outside Ireland. [10], While Niall is high king, his brothers establish themselves as local kings. Boyle, Bradley, Campbell, Cannon, Coleman, Connor, Devlin, Doherty, Donnell, and our However, the traditional roll of kings and its chronology is now recognised as artificial. They stop to cook a meal but need to find Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. See related article at Florida Irish Heritage Center. He not only ruled Ireland greatly and strongly, but carried the name and the fame, and the power and the fear, of Ireland into all neighboring nations. Fiachrae and Ailill then make war against Crimthann's son Eochaid, king of Munster. However, the traditional roll of kings and its chronology is now recognised as artificial. Brin defeats Fiachrae and hands him over as a prisoner to Niall, but Fiachrae's son Nath continues the war and eventually kills Brin. As Niall was his father's favorite, Mong Fionn did not rest until she had outcast him and his mother, Carthann, and made Carthann her menial, carrying water to the court. haplotype likely originated in the 2nd millennium BC, long before Niall is claimed to have lived, so his descendants would only represent a minority of men in this group even if Niall had been a historical figure. Niall of the Nine Hostages : r/23andme - reddit If Irish Claim Nobility,Science May Approve - The New York Times McEvoy states: "As in other polygynous societies, the siring of offspring was related to power and prestige." They should really stop doing that, the Niall of the Nine Hostages haplogroup is actually R1b-L21 (M222) which is way downstream . Oh, got it. Niall makes war in Europe as far as the Alps, and the Romans send an ambassador to parlay with him. expedition) and conquered much of Ulster. The child was rescued by a great poet of that time, Torna, who reared and educated him. Furthermore, the paper examined only 17 STR loci, which are not a reliable means of verifying descent, as SNPs, which define haplogroups and subclades, would be. [7 ] Another version has Mongfind try to poison Niall, but she takes the poison herself by mistake. [14] However, more recently some reservations have been expressed, as the subclade, which is defined by the presence of the marker R-M222, is found in a belt from Northern Ireland across southern Scotland and is not exclusively associated with the U Nill. [7], The Lebor Gabla renn says there was war between Niall and nnae Cennsalach, king of Leinster, over the brama or cow-tribute first imposed on Leinster by Tuathal Techtmar. niall of the nine hostages 23andme. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. [3] Byrne, following James Carney, is a little more precise, dating his death to c. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. 23andMe says I have paternal ancestry from Niall of the 9 Hostages [14], There are various versions of how Niall gained his epithet Nogallach. Niall Nogallach (pronounced[nil noilx]; Old Irish "having nine hostages"),[1] or Niall of the Nine Hostages, was a legendary, semi-historical Irish king who was the ancestor of the U Nill dynasties that dominated Ireland from the 6th to the 10th centuries. Another test was provided by the Stone of Fl, which screamed when it was touched by the rightful heir. The Picts tired of Nialls' ways and attacked the small Lirsh colony of Dalriada, which is now Scotland. [15] Keating says that he received five from the five provinces of Ireland, and four from Scotland. 4) [S10166] "Possible parents of Naill by Brian Tompsett 23 November 1997". 390-461). The rise of the U Nill dynasties and their conquests in Ulster and Leinster are not reliably recorded but have been the subject of considerable study and attempts to reconstruct them. Occasional That is to say, after 6-10 generations, you will lose track of entire ancestors and their ethnicity. A dated phylogenetic tree of M222 SNP haplotypes: exploring the DNA of Irish and Scottish surnames and possible ties to Niall and the U Nill kindred, Last edited on 17 February 2023, at 06:56, Learn how and when to remove this template message, The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle, "Was Niall of the Nine Hostages a real person? Across the island as a whole, a different sub-clade the M269 pattern is Niall of the Nine Hostages - HIstory of Ireland - Irish Kings Modern surnames tracing their ancestry to Niall include (O')Neill, (O')Gallagher, (O')Boyle, (O')Doherty, O'Donnell, Connor, Cannon, Bradley, O'Reilly, Flynn, (Mc)Kee, Campbell, Devlin, Donnelly, Egan, Gormley, Hynes, McCaul, McGovern, McLoughlin, McManus, McMenamin, Molloy, O'Kane, O'Rourke and Quinn. In The The sept stronghold was at Durna Shelca, near (Carnfree) in County Roscommon. She Within our second panel of markers the most distinctive difference from the R1b Modal is the 15,16,16,17 at DYS 464. Although generally supposed to be a historical personage, very little can confidently be said of Niall's life. Birth of Conall Gulban mac Nill, King of Tirconal, Birth of Cairbre mac Nill, High King of Ireland, 126th HIgh KIng of Ireland, Greatest High King of Ireland, aka Nial Mor NAOIGHIALLACH `of the Nine Hostages'; 1st King (but reckoned 126th MONARCH) of IRELAND; conquered nine countries (incl. He makes war and destroys the poet's stronghold, killing his son Leat[11] (Keating has it that Laidchenn was a druid, and that Eochaid killed his son after he used defamatory language towards him). Irish tradition had forgotten that the Romans once ruled Britain, and relocated his remembered confrontations with the Empire to continental Europe, with Alba, the ancient name for Britain, being confused with Elpa, the Alps, or being understood with its later meaning of Scotland. Throughout the 1600 and 1700s, thousands of Irish men of fighting age would migrate to Europe as 'Soldiers for Hire' to fight in various wars. McManus, Molloy, Reilly, Rourke and Quinn. Lots of the Irish nobility fled to Spain and then on to Rome in the early 1600s. I may be wrong though. Crimthann refuses to drink it unless she does too; they both drink, and both die. provide water, but she wants a kiss in return. [4] Famous descendants include Niall's great-great grandson Saint Columba, Saint Mel Ruba, the Kings of Ailech, the Kings of Tir Eogain, and the Kings of Tr Conaill. These names continue to be most prevalent in the Northwest of Ireland, the Niall exiles him to Scotland. [9] He is succeeded by his nephew Nath . Abruptly, the tale then has Niall appearing before an assembly of Pictish bards in Scotland, where he is killed by an arrow shot by Eochaid from the other side of the valley. [4 ] A poem by the 11th century poet Cined Ua Hartacin in the Book of Leinster credits Niall with seven raids on Britain, on the last of which he was killed by Eochaid "above the surf of the Ictian Sea";[4 ][1 2] a poem attributed to the same poet in Lebor na hUidre credits him with going to the Alps seven times. Because of that, the identification of M222 with Niall's descendants is "difficult to justify". Hughes says "Niall himself must have died not before the middle of the fifth century". or central areas of Scotland have the so-called Niall of the Nine Hostages This was expected of someone of his status in a polygamous society where all kingship existed. In Italy the Irish were primarily found in Milan and Naples - deployed there by Spain. Take a look inside Dublin's most stylish townhouse, Number 31, Irish songs to avoid this St. Patricks Day, JFK's words remind us of the true meaning of St. Patrick's Day. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. haplotype originated at least several centuries before Niall is claimed to have lived, so his descendants would only represent a minority of men in this group. Brin rules the province of Connacht, but Fiachrae makes war against him. [5], This "loathly lady" motif appears in myth and folklore throughout the world. Even if you were alive at the same time as Niall, your common paternal ancestor still would have been thousands of years back. Hughes says "Niall himself must have died not before the middle of the fifth century". Or is it just bs from 23andMe? So how do you know if you have Irish ancestry? The Spread of DNA From "Niall of the Nine Hostages" - DNA in the News For more information, please see our ), I can investigate my paternal line, which is traced through DNA on the Y chromosome and passed from father to son. People wanting to join this group must be managing a Ydna test from a male relative who has tested at FTdna for a Ydna test and got the little symbol that says they descend from Niall and The Nine Hostages. xenophon agesilaus summary; 85% of Irish men belong to a paternal lineage called R1b1b2, but since this line is also common across the rest of western Europe, it doesnt definitively determine if a man has Irish ancestry. Several testing companies can do this test: Of note to Family Tree DNA customers, this signature is found in .6 of one percent of the entire family Tree DNA database. Professor Dith hgin seems to indicate that Niall was likely a descendant of the Gaulish seafaring tribe of the Veneti, who originated in south-east Armorica (modern Brittany, France). Occasional By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Niall succeeds to the High Kingship, and Brin becomes his second in command. [3] O'Rahilly suggests that the nine hostages were from the kingdom of the Airgialla (literally "hostage-givers"), a satellite state founded by the Ui Nill's conquests in Ulster, noting that the early Irish legal text Lebor na gCeart ("The Book of Rights") says that the only duty of the Airgialla to the King of Ireland was to give him nine hostages. Killed in Battle. https://reddit.app.link/S7mCRh4DeR I think you're probably right about the Northern Spain theory. [6]:216-217 Keating describes her not as a Saxon but as the "daughter of the king of Britain". [9][10], Although it is anachronistic for Niall's mother to have been a Saxon, O'Rahilly argues that the name Cairenn is derived from the Latin name Carina, and that it is plausible that she might have been a Romano-Briton. Nearly 37 million Americans claim to have Irish heritage according to a national survey conducted in 2009. Niall of the Nine Hostages. She gives birth as she is drawing water, but out of fear of Mongfind, she leaves the child on the ground, exposed to the birds. Keating, quoting a Latin Life of Saint Patrick, says that Niall led Irish raids on Roman Britain, and in one of those raids Patrick and his sisters were abducted. Descended from Conaire and a daughter of the High King Conn of the. Variations of this story are told of the earlier Irish High King Lugaid Laigde, in Arthurian legend one of the most famous versions appears in both Geoffrey Chaucer's The Wife of Bath's Tale and the related Gawain romance, The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnell and in John Gower's Middle English poem Confessio Amantis. niall of the nine hostages 23andme. [11] Keating says that he received five from the five provinces of Ireland, and four from Scotland. There was also an Irish Regiment in Sicily in the early 1700s. Some of Privacy Policy. have sex with her. [3] Laidchenn responds by satirising Leinster so that no corn, grass or leaves grow there for a year. Slain by an arrow shot by Eochaidh, son of Enna Ceinnseallach [Eochaid mc nna Ceinselaig 711], on the brink of the River Loire in France. We studied if there was any association between those surnames and the genetic profile. Irish tradition had forgotten that the Romans once ruled Britain, and relocated his remembered confrontations with the Empire to continental Europe, with Alba, the ancient name for Britain, being confused with Elpa, the Alps, or being understood with its later meaning of Scotland. I confirm that, as stated in this site's Privacy Policy, I do not sell personal information. [13] He is succeeded by his nephew Nath . Byrne suggests that Niall's death took place during a raid on Roman Britain. Niall fitted out a large fleet and sailed to the assistance of his people. and tr. His men carry his body home, fighting seven battles on the way, and his foster-father Torna dies of grief. The less well-known story has it that they were taken from the Airgialla, a once powerful people who controlled an area loosely centred on present-day Armagh and Tyrone. The Family Tree Irish Genealogy Guide paperback. Categories . The saga "The Death of Niall of the Nine Hostages" says that he received five hostages from the five provinces of Ireland (Ulster, Connacht, Leinster, Munster and Meath), and one each from Scotland, the Saxons, the Britons and the Franks. [9], In another story, the succession is not settled when Eochaid dies, and Mongfind's brother Crimthann takes the high kingship. [19], Following a 2006 hypothesis by Moore et al. [27], There are various versions of how Niall gained his epithet Nogallach. [8], Niall is presumed, on the basis of the importance of his sons and grandsons, to have been a historical person,[4]:70 but the early Irish annals say little about him. When Maximus and his Roman legions were, in consequence of the barbarian pressure upon the Continental Roman Empire, withdrawing from Britain, Niall, with his Irish hosts and Pictish allies, treaded upon their hurrying heels. While Cairenn is pregnant with Niall, the jealous Mongfind forces her to do heavy work, hoping to make her miscarry. More info: https://www.familytreedna.com/landing/matching-niall.aspx. Although these studies are not coordinated with each other and are ongoing, it is already apparent that not all of these lineages are related to each other within Niall's timeframe. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. [21] However, geneticists today do not believe that the haplotype presented in the Moore paper represents descent from Niall of the Nine Hostages as Niall, being possibly mythical, does not have verifiable remains that can be tested. My guess is celtic migtation from Ireland to Northern Spain. The High Kingship did not become a reality until the 9th century, and Niall's legendary status has been inflated in line with the political importance of the dynasty he founded. Crimthann refuses to drink it unless she does too; they both drink, and both die. Husband of Inne ingen Lugaid and Roigneach ingen Meadaib His people were Celts who had escaped domination by the Romans by fleeing north and west. concluded that these men descend from "a single early-medieval progenitor" and implied this was associated with Niall's dynasty. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. repulsive, with green teeth and nails, matted unkempt hair, a decidedly crooked The Curiosity Gene: How 23andMe Dominated a Billion - MarketSmiths Mongfind, purporting to make peace between her brother and her sons, holds a feast, at which she serves Crimthann a poisoned drink. the way of these old tales, she's not just unattractive, she's positively Brin defeats Fiachrae and hands him over as a prisoner to Niall, but Fiachrae's son Nath continues the war and eventually kills Brin. Geneticists have dated this Adventure of the sons of Eochaid Mugmedon, a young Niall Nogiallach is out Each brother in turn goes looking for water, and finds a well guarded by a hideous hag who demands a kiss in return for water. [5] Byrne, following James Carney, is a little more precise, dating his death to c. [3] Laidchenn responds by satirising Leinster so that no corn, grass or leaves grow there for a year. Variations of this story are told of the earlier Irish high king Lugaid Logde, in Arthurian legend one of the most famous versions appears in both Geoffrey Chaucer's The Wife of Bath's Tale and the related Gawain romance, The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnell and in John Gower's Middle English poem Confessio Amantis. for most of the next six centuries. Sep 12, 2021. Mongfind, purporting to make peace between her brother and her sons, holds a feast, at which she serves Crimthann a poisoned drink. Medieval Irish monks supported claims to kingship or property?and gratified the egos?of their noble patrons by plotting their line of descent from Adam and Eve. 1 / 5. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts He formed an alliance with the Scots and Picts and sent ships to plunder England, Scotland, Wales, and France. r/23andme - Anyone else related to Niall of the Nine Hostages? Was he I descend from the same Sephardic Jewish clan over a dozen times. His name comes from a tale of nine hostages that he held from the regions he ruled over. Supposedly slain in the English Channel or in Scotland, his descendants were the most powerful rulers of Ireland until the 11th century. I am not sure if his father Eochy Moyvone is the same person as shown im other sources namely Echu Mugmedn, so I have shown both. Its guidance will be useful to any researcher of Irish heritage, but especially for the target Irish-American researcher who's struggling to work back to Ireland from their immigrant ancestor. Fiachrae and Ailill then make war against Crimthann's son Eochaid, king of Munster. France, killed on the banks of River Loire. [6], Early in 2006, geneticists at Trinity College, Dublin suggested that Niall may have been the most fecund male in Irish history. . County Mayo folks have Viking blood as well as that of Niall of the Hostages. Macneil clan shocked as DNA checks force rewrite of history Niall Nogallach (Old Irish "having nine hostages") (pronounced [ni%CB%90%CB%88%C9%99l nojilax])[1], or in English, Niall of the Nine Hostages, son of Eochaid Mugmedn, was an Irish king, the eponymous ancestor of the U Nill kindred who dominated Ireland from the 6th century to the 10th century. Niall chains Eochaid to a standing stone, and sends nine warriors to execute him, but Eochaid breaks his chain and kills all nine of them with it. Keating credits Niall with two wives: Inne, daughter of Lugaid, who bore him one son, Fiachu; and Rignach, who bore him seven sons, Legaire, ndae, Maine, Egan, Conall Gulban, Conall Cremthainne and Coirpre. [3] These sons are the eponymous ancestors of the various U Nill dynasties: Egan of the Cenl nEgain and Conall Gulban of the Cenl Conaill, making up the northern U Nill; Fiachu of the Cenl Fiachach dynasty, Legaire (the king who Saint Patrick is said to have converted) of the Cenl Legaire, Maine of the U Maine, Egan of the Cenl nEgain, Conall Gulban of the Cenl Conaill, Conall Cremthainne of the Clann Cholmin and the Sl nedo Sline, and Coirpre of the Cenl Coirpri, making up the southern U Nill. Although brought to Ireland against his will, the . [6], Keating credits Niall with two wives: Inne, daughter of Lugaid, who bore him one son, Fiachu; and Rignach, who bore him seven sons, Legaire, ndae, Maine, Egan, Conall Gulban, Conall Cremthainne and Coirpre.